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In this brief response, I concede that Professor Farmer is right to say that the dark side of penal modernism may deserve more attention than I give it, but maintain that there was a certain moral courage even in the darker claims of the movement. In response to Professor Brown I argue that the doctrinal failure of retributivism in contemporary American criminal law is a disaster foretold by the legal realists; and while I admit the force of his pessimism about the future of penal modernism infatcat:ob74m3p3gjhqph44kxq5tdxwgy