It is challenging to define who Michel Foucault was, whether he was a theorist, a philosopher, a historian, or a critic. In many of his books, and essays, Foucault denied being a philosopher or a theorist, nor did he want to be called a writer or a prophet. He described himself as an experimenter by saying that his work simply consists of 'philosophical fragments put to work in a historical field of problems'. Like Ball [2013. Foucault, power, and education. New York: Routledge, p. 2], we

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... e that Foucault tried hard not to be 'a something', opening up opportunities to develop and practise theory. Emeritus Professor Mark Olssen has written widely on Foucault's theoretical underpinnings and legacy. This conversation aims to revisit Olssen's work, as well as Foucault's own writings in order to engage with Foucault's philosophical background and the methods he developed. By exploring Foucault's theoretical and methodological approaches, the conversation situates his work within broader traditions of social theory, particularly within the works of Marx and Hegel. Our conversation starts by discussing Foucault's relationship with Marx and Hegel and moves towards his approach to history and his wider contribution to poststructuralist school of thought. ARTICLE HISTORY Rille Raaper: Foucault's transformative writing style is well known. Some Foucauldian scholars even differentiate between an early and late Foucault, pessimistic and optimistic Foucault among other similar contrasts. I have found these variations in his work fascinating. It seems that Foucault was also aware of his transformative style if we can call it like that. He explained in one of his interviews that it was a desire to explore and understand unknown that inspired his work: 'I write a book only because I still don't know what to think about this thing I want so much to think about, so that the book transforms me and transforms what I think' (Foucault, 2002a, pp. 239-240). In other words, Foucault allowed himself to challenge and change his thinking over time. Perhaps one of the most important transformations in his work relates to his methodological shift from archaeology to genealogy. Foucault (1972, p. 154) explained archaeology as an approach that helps to resist the ideas of linear progression and continuous history, and it enables the abandonment of the 'history of ideas [...] its postulates and