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It is generally agreed that black hole formation in gravity corresponds to thermalization in the dual CFT. It is sometimes argued that if the CFT evolution shows evidence of large redshift in gravity, then we have seen black hole formation in the CFT. We argue that this is not the case: a clock falling towards the horizon increases its redshift but remains intact as a clock; thus it is not 'thermalized'. Instead, thermalization should correspond to a new phase after the phase of large redshift,doi:10.1007/jhep06(2020)004 fatcat:mrmze7xtcnhrzhb3pxhydkygim